É: Hello Mini-Mini.
M: Hello Manue.
É: I was going to ask you some questions for my research methods course that I take at University.
M: Okay.
É: So if you agree we are going to have a really laid-back interview, of a duration of about 20- 30 minutes.
M: No problem.
É: No problem, then I was wanting to see if we could start by talking a little bit about your arrival here in Canada.
M: Hum...
É: From Chad. More precisely I would like to know, when you arrived after winning the creative writing contest, when you found out you would stay here.
M: Yeah
É: When you realized Beral would go to jail, I would like you to tell me what were the procedures to follow with the government, the immigration, and how you felt about it all.
M: Okay. I would say it wasn't totally easy because at first I was seen as a visitor and then my status changed so I had to go through procedures with the immigration to get accepted as a refugee to then go on with the procedures to become a permanent resident later. The steps take a lot of time, truly tiring and it often made me think if it was right to have won this contest that brought me here in the first place to endure all this. But at the same time I was relaxed because I was thinking it was formalities, things that may be normal even though they are tiring, and we have to deal with it, so I could hold on with regards to the obstacles to overcome. It demanded a lot of patience, a lot of paper work, at times Immigration Québec was confused with Immigration Canada, we were wondering why we had to have a lawyer, also where the office was, because we were sometimes mistaken for other people and if we didn't have the help of the YMCA seriously it wasn't obvious. But every day we had services telling us what to do and people that were following our case, and they were helping us to go to the right address, to the right place, what's the closest subway station and how to get there, because otherwise at first it wasn't easy. Not easy at all.
É: But were you alone to do this process. When you say 'We', who do you refer to, the other participants in the contest, or...
M: No, the other ones in the contest, I wasn't with them and they had nothing to do with my arrival, because I was the only African of the team and I was the only one affected by my situation so I was the only one to stay. When I say 'we', it's because we were living in a house at the YMCA with the other refugees that had to do the same thing to get accepted and explain their situation. But me I was finding myself very lonely here, and I sometimes think like I was like an orphan, because nobody spoke my language in Montréal, like I met other Chadians but there was no family linkages. It wasn't obvious and it's also people that had other stuff to do. No, really the service that most helped us is the SARIM, it's a service that works to the benefit of immigrants, to the benefit of those who arrive and don't know where to go, etc. And that's the service that helped us dealing with immigration.
But as I said at first, it's a lot of paper work, lot of time, and every day we are stressed and confused, and we are scared and we don't know what's gonna happen. And we also have our heads down because at first I came here with my head up with the contest, and I won the third prize but then suddenly I found myself back to the level where I had to negotiate everything like a poor refugee who is scared but he needs to try hard to be understood. I admit it was a shock for me and regarding my personality and the pride I had attained because I was doing rewarding things in my country and then I found myself in a situation where I was being managed like a poor refugee and it wasn't always pleasant a situation to endure. But the situation was such that we were still being treated like human beings and it wasn't like the refugees of Goma in Congo or the refugees of Darfur in Chad but it was still a situation where you are disturbed. Once you introduce yourself to the city, you don't feel like saying you're a refugee, you don't feel like saying that you still don't have a SIN. When you want to work, the first thing they ask you for is your SIN, and if it starts with a 9 then they know that you're a refugee because for the residents and the citizens of the province of Québec it always starts with a 2 and when it doesn’t start with a 2 we can block you or make your life harder because we know you're not a resident and you're in a situation where you have to negotiate so, well, you lose what you have. So, it was pretty hard morally, after all.
É: Okay, so you told me that you were working with Immigration Canada in Montréal. So do you think that, besides the organization that you just mentioned, do you think that the Canadian government is doing a good job to facilitate the integration of new comers to Canada?
M: Well actually, at first, I was a refugee so I benefited from these services, the SARIM, I don't know if it's with Québec or Canada, but at first I didn't really differentiate between the two. But at first with regards to the difficulties you have to go through, in spite of all the paper work, I say to myself that in general the process is very smooth, they treat you like human beings, the procedures are long, but it's necessary and they treat you more or less positively. It's at the level of practical life that you are singled out as a refugee and you don't have the same respect that a resident or someone else could have. But with regards to the immigration, the service is thus: even if it's long, tiring, and you are scared, because when you are refugee, there are three steps, you first have to get accepted as a refugee, and then become a permanent resident, and then you can also make the demand to become a citizen, but that's another level of procedures. So, each time you fill out this paperwork, you are scared to miss something in the information, and there is certain information you don't have anymore, you forgot, so you have to address your parents in our country to get it, and you know that when it's taking a long time for you then the immigration has a lot of patrons, and there are a lot of people.
So it becomes longer and longer, so when they ask you a certain paper, then you have to get it from your country, and knowing that us refugees aren't always allowed to communicate with our country in an open way because of security, you get really worried. The biggest fear we had was to get our request for refugee status declined, or the status of... When you are not accepted, you are waiting to receive a letter to ask you to leave the country. Me, I didn't experience that, but there are some people that could not explain their situation in a proper and reasonable manner. And it's difficult because it's people that have difficulties and they cannot go back to their own country, and this country cannot welcome them, and they are limited financially so they cannot always buy the tickets, etc, and all of that. When you know that this could happen that's a sufficient reason to be scared all the time. So on the day of your audit, even those who don't have faith pray to God so that it goes well, because it's an important step to know if you will live here or you will leave.
I admit that at the level of normal life we live in a relaxed way, but keeping in mind that you don't know what tomorrow will be like and everything is provisory. For example I cannot buy a TV because I don't know if I will leave tomorrow, and I will be asked to leave. So each time you push back to tomorrow what you could otherwise have today. And for employment, it's a lot of pain, because when they know that you are refugee they can treat you miserably because they know that you cannot protest because you aren't complete enough, so these are things that you need to bear. But at the level of immigration, I think things are fine because anyways, they give you a lawyer who follows your case with you and he's paid for by the government, but it's at the level of practical life that it's hard. Yeah...
É: When you say that it was hard to find a job here as a refugee in Canada, do you find that the fact that, for example, you didn't speak English in Montréal, was that bad, or, do you think that since the recognition of your education was not ideal, then that played more of a role? Did that bother you?
M: Well in terms of recognition of education from my country, I totally put away my degrees and my experiences to become the man of the masses who can work anywhere. I worked in the fields, with the black smiths, in fact; I did stuff that I would never have thought to do with all my experience. I forgot all my studies, for example, because you don't have any choice, because if you don't do it, you don't live so you do anything. In going to work in the fields, for example, I don't go as a journalist or as someone with a University degree; I do it as someone who needs money to live. With regards to the job, with regards to the language, with regards to an ideal that you would want to get, English is an obstacle in terms of administrative work. And since for me my diplomas aren't recognized and I am not seen as someone that possesses a certain type of skills, but as an immigrant, as a refugee, then we work with agencies that send you work in factories to lift boxes. Everyday work that is not desired.
But me I had the chance to get a job with the Welcoming Service for Newcomers as an agent of welcoming and communications. English would be a problem if only the patrons were not mostly Francophone. Otherwise, after six months, after this job that was subsidized by Québec Employment, I had trouble finding another job, because if I was going to do similar work, English was necessary and even if Montréal is Québec and Québec is Francophone, you are always asked to have a second language- English. For me who's coming from a Francophone country, yes, but where French is spoken only after having been to school, that's a double difficulty for me, because I am an immigrant, I am Black, and it's that sort of thing that did not necessarily help me. So I found myself working in factories, lifting boxes because I didn't have choice or otherwise I would die. I always told myself that I never wanted to go on welfare and I needed to do it, but then I could never do it because I am a public person. I am someone who goes out and talks to people. I don't want to have to answer to the question about what I do with my life, because you can't dare tell people that you're on welfare because it's not valorising, and me I say that I have already attained enough in my personality without having to experience this.
So, for me, welfare, it's not that I can't, it's not that it's bad or inferior, but I know that physically there are still things I can do, and I prefer go to work and forget my degrees and do whatever instead of going on welfare. Because I say to myself that when I volunteer and do activities, then I can still speak out loud and keep my head up instead of... But I admit that it was not easy, and if I was not studying right now, the difficulties would continue because English is an important tool to have as an asset, and then the other thing is that I am still new and even if I am resident now, I am still new and an immigrant to the eyes of many, so I am still someone that's not from here. And managers know that, and they take advantage of it, because they know you can't fight for your rights. People from here do it, with force, but if you're from elsewhere, you're still from elsewhere so even if it isn't said to you directly, you still can feel people's attitude.
É: Hum... I was wondering, you know, you're talking about how people are not always very receptive, so I was wondering what were your impressions with regards to Canadians in general, their lifestyle, and their country...
M: Well for the lifestyle of Canadians, really quickly, I could say that it's an individualist mode, and that's nothing to compare with what we have at home. It's sure that here the economic and technological state means that everyone is self-sufficient without someone else. When someone works they count their money and they don't need anybody else. At home it's not really the same thing, I can't figure out or imagine how certain people could live in the same house and not know their neighbour's name. But he doesn't need me and each day he goes to work and comes back, without bothering, and each one is considered self-sufficient. But once they are at meetings in public- since I was very involved in volunteering and stuff- in public people are very nice and when you have the chance to actually talk to people then they are really open, but it's not exactly the same thing when you are looking for work or for something that requires you to ask something that you can take to your advantage. People smile, they do everything, but the openness is superficial.
What I like to say is that solidarity exists here in another form, for example it doesn't exist if there's no publicity attached to it. It's as if you want to be spoken about. I was referring to what happened with the tsunami and everything. I can't explain how, when getting off the subway and seeing a homeless person, we insult him, and then at the same time we send money to an organization that works for the well-being of those people. Its one form of solidarity, this money is sent and given with a lot of generosity, but I was wondering if the one who is suffering on the side, is he not suffering as much at least? I am told that it's because they chose that life themselves, and that they had the options to be helped but they decided not to, and then I say I'm not convinced because even if it were the case, then the human relation is still the same.
I remember one time somebody begged from me, and it was a old man of about 70, and I stopped to talk with him for a bit and he asked me where I was from, and I told him I was from Chad in Africa and we talked for a bit and then he told me it was enough. It's not necessarily money that he needs, but when people insult him while passing by then it's not the same thing. I was thinking to myself, as long as we live in the same house and you are suspicious of the other ones because you don't want to walk on their territory, then it can create other situations. I think that we live brainwashed by laws, not by the human factor, because it's not that it's bad, but the machines are now replacing humans' hearts. I say that for me, without complaining, I say that it's not the natural bond that we have at home, like, at the same time everybody does his thing without bothering the other.
É: But if, for instance, you had friends or family from Chad who told you that they were interested in coming here to Canada, what would you tell them?
M: One thing I would say is that it's a really good idea to come, but they have to be realistic. But as I often said, we have the impression that the Canada experienced from within as an immigrant is not the same Canada as we see elsewhere when we see publicities on the walls. When we do come here, we realize that we are a small piece, part of a big system, and we have to fight to survive, and when I say to survive, I mean, it's not always the easy life, and it's not always the easy life that is shown in the media. But it's true to a certain extent because someone who lives here, he has everything, he has everything in his room, but other people don't necessarily do so. If we want to take my room at this moment, we can take it and put it in the context of Africa- then it is all luxury. But here in the Canadian context it isn't anything. And we start thinking that people have big diplomas, big experiences, big references, and it takes them 5 or easily 10 years to find half of what they used to do, it's frustrating. But for me I don't see it that way because I was still in process, I was still a student and I was responsible for the newspaper but I was still going somewhere. But when you see people that already have references, then it's a bit frustrating at many levels. There are friends that are students and they want to come here, it's good. If they want to come here to study, it's good, but if they come here because they think it's paradise here and things are all going to go smoothly, then it's problematic.
Me, I lost two years, almost three years, waiting for procedures before being able to start University. The youth, the ones that I left behind, they went forward in their life and now they are forging their place in the world, as opposed to me who is still searching for himself. Today if I talk with these young people, I realize that they went forward in comparison to with me, and if I look at things from an interior perspective, then I am still a little bit advanced since I didn't adapt badly to life her, but at the professional level I think that my references didn't grow at all, because I still have to find my way. So I'm saying that if someone wants to come, they have to be realistic, or else they risk being harmed in their self-esteem. But it seems that with time, it all works out and you finally adapt, but I don't know, for now, its still...
Me, I am pretty happy with how things are. I did move, but I still lost three years after all. And, it's still, I don't do anything great, yes, I write articles for newspapers here and there, but it's all voluntary, I don't do it with the same honour and strength that I did at home. Here, what I was there is considered to be miserable; I did three years of university there, and here I still start in first year. It's as if I didn't do anything because I studied in Africa. And there are some people who come here with bigger references than I do, and they have to start everything from scratch for daily life, fight to eat and redo everything instead of going forward in their career. I think that if someone comes here with big dreams, he can be disappointed, because it's not that the country is bad, but it takes time to find your role.
É: I think there are a lot of things we can learn from you guys as well...
M: Yeah, well it's not that... I guess that for people at home, there are still some that have some difficulties, but for them it's easier there than for an African coming here. Because here, it makes me sad to say this, but we are considered like miserable people who come here to find a better life, so even if you have references... When I think about those who sold their property and who left great positions to come here, and they have to do jobs that they couldn't even do at home since they still did a certain level of advanced studies. It's difficult because it's as if here we are caught in a catch 22 situation: it's hard to leave, because you have to fight and if you don't fight back then you die. I say to myself that if I don't fight, I risk becoming a beggar in the streets, and I have to make a living every day. I used to write a lot, but I came here where the system is different. If I do take time to write, I risk not having time to do the minimum I need to survive. I'm fighting like a robot to survive instead of furthering my capacities, and it's not obvious, really. But we make do with it. I like to say that its life and it's a daily combat. But, yeah, its life, and I consider reality as it is and yeah... Nothing is won in advance, we have to fight.
É: Oh yeah. But me I am not worried for you. (Laughter)
M: Yes! (Laughter) It's, yeah...
É: So... Thanks! We are probably going to stop here, and we'll probably continue talking later.
M: No problem. Thanks!
É: Thanks!
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