Kari Leong: Thank you, Evan. Today's guest is Gail Mukaihata Hannemann, CEO of the Girl Scout Council of Hawaii, and wife of Honolulu mayor Mufi Hannemann. Gail is also the Chairwoman of the Hawaii Alliance for Arts Education. Please welcome to Greater Good Radio, Gail Mukaihata Hannemann. Welcome to our show, Gail.
Gail Hannemann: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
KL: You are the CEO of the Girl Scouts' Council of Hawaii. Can you tell us a little bit about your role and what you do with them?
GH: Well, the Girl Scouts is obviously, our focus is to help girls develop; and so, there's a program side to it and there's a business side of it, and I oversee both aspects of the organization in that regard.
KL: And why did you get involved in the Girl Scouts?
GH: Actually, I had been sitting on the Board, and they had been doing a search for an Executive Director at that time, and somebody approached me, part of the search committee approached me to do it. And initially I said, "no," and said "no" several times, and then eventually I thought I should take a look at it, and did, and went through the interviewing process, and then found out that it actually is an excellent job, something that I would really want to do.
EL: Why did you say no, initially?
GH: Because I just never even considered working for a non-profit, it's actually my first non-profit job. I had, in my mind, other things that I was going to do, some of the things that I was going to pursue. But the one thing I have found in life is sometimes when things come to you in interesting and different ways that you have to stop and take a look at it, because sometimes, many times, people say that they don't have opportunities, when in fact opportunities came and went because they weren't looking. They didn't realize it was an opportunity.
KL: Were you a Girl Scout when you were younger?
GH: I actually was. [laughs]
KL: So you knew a little bit about the organization.
GH: Well, as a girl you don't realize the organization, the business side of it, which is what my job entails. But as a girl you just think about the fun, and the things that you do. So I think I understood it in a sense that it's something that I remembered, and it was a very positive experience, and I learned some new skills in that, when I was a Girl Scout I learned how to horseback-ride. I learned how to do archery. I learned how to ice-skate. Things of that nature. Which, actually, I have all used those things as I got older.
EL: How did you get involved with, you know, with this business career? Because it seems like you started off in social service, almost.
GH: I started off by accident, almost, in public service. I went to Washington, DC, for summer for two months, and I ended up spending 15 years there. So it wasn't something I had planned. But when I got to DC I saw that there were some, a lot of things going on that I had no understanding, or really didn't have any context for, but I realized that people were making important decisions that would affect my life at some level. So at some point I felt like it was worth spending that time to get to know that. And in that process, though, because Congress really deals with just about every conceivable subject matter you can think of, from the social sector side to the business side, you're looking at laws that affect businesses and monetary growth, etc. that it gave me a really good background and sort of awakened the passion in me, I guess, for lack of a better word, of understanding how you could take something that's really interesting to you and actually make it a career. One of the things that I really learned in Washington is you meet all kinds of people there. And if you ever sat down and talked to them and you asked them what they studied in school, it would be X. And if you look at what they're doing, it was Y. It was so different. And it really taught me or made me think about how you can really carve out your future. And when you really think about it and you talk to these folks, they were all basically pursuing things that they found interesting in their own life, and I think that helped me decide what to do.
KL: What, originally, took you to Washington, DC?
GH: I shouldn't really admit this but I actually just liked to travel. And every summer since I had been 14 I had always gone somewhere during the summer. And I had always wanted to go to college back East, but because there were four girls in my family, three of us were going to be in college at the same time, we took the practical path of not travelling outside. I grew up in California. So California has some incredible, great schools. So we all chose to go to California schools. And so I thought, it was my last summer, my senior year and I thought, "I'm going to figure out how to go back East." So I literally walked around the campus and I somehow found a program that could take me to back East. So I applied for the program and ended up getting a job.
EL: What kept you there for 15 years?
GH: It's an interesting place. It's a place where lots of decisions are made. And I said, when I decided to stay it was really so that I could actually learn what makes the world tick. Basically, you can see that happening in Washington, DC. You know, you start thinking your day's going to be this, you watch the news and you know your life just changed because it impacts what you're doing and the things that happen in the world.
KL: During your time at Washington, DC, are you able to share with us, maybe, who was the most influential or impactful person or leader that you met, and were able to talk to them and learn some important lessons that have carried with you until today?
GH: That's a hard question. I actually worked for seven elected officials. So actually to me that was the biggest benefit, was that when you work with seven different people, they have seven different styles, not only styles of leadership, but also just what they're interested in, and what their constituency looks like, etc. And so that in itself taught me a lot about how to be flexible, how to focus on what you're supposed to get done, but finding the right style to work with each one of the various bosses because they all had very different ways of doing things. So I can't say there was one person, oh, I guess, I could say actually I worked for the chairman of one committee, and I remember he started off the legislative session saying this one bill that he was working on was the most important bill of his career. And he had a long career in Congress. So of course, that puts the ante up, and everyone's very focused on it and it was a very complicated and very contentious bill that we were pushing through. We dealt with resources, and this particular one had to do with water and energy--there were two different bills, actually. And so we got through it, we made all this big progress, and it came down to actually signing the papers, and somebody messed up on the paperwork. And so it was like the close of business at the 11th hour. So the parliamentarian had called me and told me that there was this major mess-up on the paperwork, and that we had to work it out. He gave us about a half an hour, otherwise the bill would have died--it was about two years to try to get this done. So one of us had to go tell our boss. And of course, you would expect, actually, to be fired under those conditions. And the first and only thing he said was, "What do I need to do to fix it?" He said, "I know nobody did this on purpose. What do I need to do?" And he went and did it. We had to basically run around all over the place. And I thought, afterwards, that he had every right to come back and scream and yell and everything. He never did. He said what he said, and he said, "I know no one did this. I know everyone did their best." And that was it. And it taught me a lot about how you treat people, and how you can make a situation and you can turn it into a terrible thing, but that in itself almost galvanizes the whole staff because they realized what he could have done. And he didn't do it, and it really pushed us to move forward and to do other things. So I think I learned from him about how you treat people with respect and that to always look at the intent of what people are doing as opposed to a particular situation.
KL: Gail, then what took you away from Washington, DC?
GH: Actually, my husband. [laughs]
KL: So you folks met in Washington, DC.
GH: We met in Washington, DC, many, many, many years ago.
EL: How'd you guys meet?
GH: Well, I can tell you that we agree on how we met. Then after that the story changes drastically. He was actually working for the Department of Interior, and I was working for a Congressman who represented an area that was multi-ethnic and it had a lot of Asian-Pacific Islanders. And so, clearly I understood the Asian side to it. It was the Pacific side of it, in terms of some of the cultures I really didn't quite get a full appreciation for. So actually, we had met actually at a Congressman's reception, and we started talking. And I was asking him a lot of questions about Polynesian culture which, clearly, that's what his orientation is. And then, after that, we developed mainly a working relationship.
EL: So you guys worked for a while together and then.
GH: We didn't work together it was, no, I don't know.
KL: That's where the story changes.
GH: Yeah, that's where the story changes. I was working. I don't know what his story is, but I was working.
[laughter]
EL: Then when you first moved to Hawaii, was it culture shock at all, or was it pretty comfortable? How was it for you?
GH: I grew up in LA area in the Gardena/Torrance area, most everyone now knows where that is. Back then, actually, Gardena this was in the '60s and '70s had more Japanese-Americans per capita than any other place in the United States. So it had, and I think Hawaii has a very similar Asian culture in that, there's obviously other mixes that go in there. But a lot of the customs and things work the same. In fact, when I moved to DC it was very strange that was a culture shock to me--because it was a very different way of doing business; people are much more up front. I won't say it's in-your-face, because it's a lot of subtleties that go beyond, but it's a very different way of dealing with people, and I actually struggled in the beginning to kind of figure out how to find my place and to fit in. But I remember that, one of the long-time friendships that I've developed, with this friend of mine, it all started with, if you look at her, she looks very "haole" She's an Italian/Irish extract. And she and I are like night and day, personality-wise, interest-wise, etc., but we became really good friends and it came over a simple custom where, we like food. So Italians love food, I love food, and we were exchanging food back and forth, and of course these little containers, and she actually knows it, she said to me, "The way you were brought up, can you never return something empty?" And I thought, "Well, I don't know, I never thought about it." You know? You just do it. And I said, "I guess so, that's how I was brought up." And she said, "That's how I was brought up! And nobody else here understands that, you know?!" So that, you know, that actually, that cultural orientation actually brought us close. So coming to Hawaii, it was very similar to how I grew up. You know, I actually missed that part, I think I would say, living in DC. So it felt like home from day one.
KL: Gail, you know, my biggest question is: you're married to the mayor of Honolulu, and how is it being married to the mayor on a daily basis?
GH: In some ways my life got better in a sense that he has just always been really busy and kept all kinds of schedules and never been very organized about it. So I can remember many times where he would be telling me, it'd be 5:00 and say, oh and did I tell you that dinner we're going to tonight is black tie? And I keep saying, women getting ready for black tie is very different from men. He has some really good staff that keep him very organized and keep me informed. So that way on a practical basis my life has gotten very good. On a daily basis I guess it's been, from a personal point of view, it's been a good thing in that Mufi really loves what he's doing. And I think that makes a big difference when somebody really enjoys what they're doing, even when it comes with all these headaches and heartaches and tough decisions. He really enjoys what he's doing. So that makes for really interesting day to day conversations and just to watch somebody really enjoy their job I think is a really important to have in life. On a practical basis, we both have very busy schedules and our famous sort of line is whoever leaves at morning says, see ya tomorrow. Because sometimes it is not til the next day that you actually see that person or actually have a conversation, not so much see, but have that conversation.
EL: You are in high levels of your company and pretty much all the companies you've been with. Now I'm sure a lot people kind of say, oh that's the mayor's wife. But you actually have a very strong career on your own. How do you distinguish yourself and keep your own identity aside from that? Does that make sense?
GH: Yeah. Well, in my work world I actually don't know if people really think of me, that I happen to be married to Mufi. I mean because work is work and you're there focusing on what you need to be doing. It really doesn't even come up in that context. But I don't know.
KL: Have you ever stopped to think that it does help to say, you know I am the mayor's wife?
GH: I think I err on that side where I would never do... you actually bring up a good point though because what it does do though is a lot of times I'll take a step back to make sure that even though I'm doing something that I know is proper and OK, it could be perceived as being something that can be construed other ways. And as everyone knows in politics perception sometimes becomes reality. So in some regards like, for instance, we actually have a national policy and a local policy that actually predates me coming on board that prohibits the top employees from participating in political events or political campaigns and being involved in issues that are not related to your core business. So there are many things that I don't participate in at all that maybe I should be as a wife but because of my work I hold back so there is never that people don't think I am using the Girl Scouts, which I think has an exceptionally great brand name and people have a lot of good will and Aloha for it toward something that could be perceived as politically advantageous.
EL: What is it about what you're doing now that you love so much that you can give that part up for what you are doing?
GH: What do you mean by giving up?
EL: Because if you have to preclude yourself from certain things whether it's... you cannot be involved with certain political things, things that maybe they're like, how come you're not here or so on? But you do it anyways. Does that make sense? It's like you're giving up one part of it to make a difference.
GH: I don't see it so much as giving up. I see it more as balancing. I mean for one thing you can't do everything. If you try to do everything, nothing works. So it's knowing where my priority is at that time and also having a good understanding with, in this particular case with Mufi, he knows why I don't show up to certain things. So as long as he's not upset if everyone else wants to get upset, I can't do anything about it. I can do something about the way the people in my immediate world feel about something but you can't please everybody. So just like in life in general, you prioritize. You know where you're at. Sometimes it changes. That's kind of what you're referring to, too. You have different stages in your life and in this particular stage in my life when I have a responsibility to the Girl Scouts. That is high on my priority. It doesn't change my responsibilities or relationship as a wife but it could change my professional... or my public duties, I should say.
KL: You're also the chairwoman for the Holy Alliance for Arts. Are you able to tell us a little bit about that organization and your involvement?
GH: Yes. The Holy Alliance is an organization, it's sort of the umbrella group for most of the art organizations in the state of Hawaii. We're affiliated with the Kennedy Center and the Kennedy Center has one alliance in each state across the nation. And what we are trying to do is trying to find ways to support the arts, public support as well as to find resources that can help make the arts thrive. So on a practical level we have three strands. We work in the community, we work in education, and we work in advocacy areas. So our educational components, we work very closely with the others, the stakeholders in the state, that have to do with developing curriculum for kids in school. Our goal is to make sure that every child has a quality education, in K-3 to 5. In our community project, we want to be able to demonstrate that the arts are a vibrant part of the community, both as from a social aspect but also from an economic point of view. So one of the projects that we have going now is the Arts at Mark's Garage. We started that project to embrace those philosophy. And then the advocacy speaks to public policy in the development of issues related to it.
KL: What brings you to be so involved in arts in Hawaii?
GH: Well, I always say that my parents spent lots of money to find out I have no talent. So it wasn't about necessarily that I am such a talented human being, that I just want to find venues in order to do my thing. But it was really when I thought about it, it was what the arts taught me. Kind of two parts to the question. When I moved to Hawaii, Mufi and I had very similar professional backgrounds. We'd both been involved in public policy, etc. And I knew from day one that he wanted to be a public elected official or in that public policy arena, I should say. Not that I wanted to stay out of it, but there would be too much for the two of us being in the same field. So I was looking for some things that I could personally contribute to in a public policy way but that would kind of stay out of the areas that he was interested in. He's always been very interested in business development, etc. And so I looked down and I was looking at all the things were happening in Hawaii, or not happening, I should say for that matter, and what I felt would be a meaningful thing for me to contribute efforts toward. It ended up being at the arts. At that time the state was doing major budget cuts. A lot of times in those budget cuts, it's the arts go first. And what I was thinking about was my personal experience in that most everyone is more like me where they aren't going to be an artist. They don't really have artistic being. But we're all human beings and the arts and the culture really speak to that part of the human being. And I know from my side when I look at it, some of the things that I learned in the arts really help me in professional experiences today. So, for example, I learned my fractions by studying music cause it's all about counting measures and bars and notes and etc. I also had a teacher who was very into music theory and listening and harmony and things like that. Those skills that you learn when you're trying to hear notes and figuring out what the harmony is, things like that, are the same skills that you use when you go into meetings. And there's all this discord going on. There are all these things going on. You're trying to pick out the different sounds and the notes, what's going on. And your job, in my particular case the CEO, is in trying to take that stuff and harmonize it or to align it or to figure out which note is out of tune and how to get it back. So it's the same exact skill, same thing with the visual arts when we study it. It's about being able to see spatial relations and that very much plays a part into business development and understanding relationships and things of that nature. So I feel that it's important for every child to have that, as well as somehow, I mean you know being in a studio, music and art has a common language. You don't necessarily have to understand that language to have that music or that piece of art or that performance pull at your heart strings. So that's how I got involved. The interesting part, though, is that where I have had more success keeping my Girl Scouts separate from Mufi, the arts have actually collided. Even though that was the one area that I though I was making this effort to make sure that I stayed completely out of the same arena, it's actually now in his role as mayor and in my role in terms of doing the community development part with the Alliance have actually crossed over. So one of the areas would be the Chinatown redevelopment. Arts at Mark's Garage is in that corridor that many of us have had the vision of trying to help change through the arts and it also has become one of the priorities of Mufi's administration on a broader scope, not just the arts. But so it's interesting how there's a summit that's coming up, the Chinatown Summit, and the Alliance will play a small part in that. One is that we're part of the presenters. I'm actually not going to do the presenting, but we have a presentation. We had a grant from the Ford Foundation. The Ford Foundation economic development section has awarded, I think it's nine of us now across the nation, on demonstration projects that show on how the arts can transform communities. And so through that they've also given us additional funding to try to entice people in the Chinatown area to come up with bright ideas. We have this grant that we're going to give, it's like these mini, little grants I guess is probably the right word for people who come up with bright ideas to try to improve the Chinatown area. So it's an example where sometimes your best intents ends up not working the way you want it. I'm not complaining. It's just I find it sort of ironic. But it also speaks to what the arts is about. It's about building communities and that's what the mayor does too. He's supposed to be building communities too.
EL: Do you sing?
GH: Oh, no. Oh my goodness. No. We won't be doing duets. No.
EL: OK. Well, thank you so much, Gail Mukaihata Hannemann, for joining us today on Great Good Radio Hawaii. This is your host Evan Leong and Kari Leong saying please join us next time for another episode of Greater Good Radio Hawaii.
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